the Fairness of Fair, first main point
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the Fairness of Fair, first main point
jars of clay Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:49 am
In all the denominations that call themselves Christian or Evangelical, they all have a common focus point and that is the dogma of salvation. Although some of the denominations would say that they do not have focus on theology, I would suggest that they are just as seeped in theology as a church that openly admits it. I say this because the word theology actually comes for two Greek words Theos and ology, which translates literally to God study. It is impossible to say that you believe in God without having believes about Him.
What about the doctrine I mentioned earlier? As I said earlier all denominations that refer to themselves as being ‘Christian’ or ‘Evangelical’ have something to say on the matter, and as often as not, get off on three major points, they are 1)Man chooses God through his own freewill. 2) Man is saved by saying a prayer and asking God to come into his heart. 3) Salvation means that sin is dropped and nobody has to pay for it. And 4) that Man can chose to walk away from, or lose his salvation in Christ Jesus. I will explain these to the best of my ability, and may take separate essays to explain the other two main points. I would stress that my aim is not so much to try and sway others from their current disposition as to help others see a point of view that I believe is in line with Gods word.
I. Freewill and the Fairness of Fair
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Man has established a level of importance on being free. He has stated quite clearly that to be under another is not natural or right. To be free, is in man’s mind, a separating factor from those who are human, and those who are mere animals. If you are not free then you are unable to defend your dignity, your honor, your pride, you’re very self. Man wants the ability to be in control. We have shown this again in our want to be free, to be able to chose for ourselves how we go about our lives. Of course change is natural; one of the requirements for human life is to be able to change. It is hard to be in control of change unless you are the one causing the change. As such Man has the natural want to feel like he can not be predicted, that what he does can not be guessed or controlled in any way shape or form, of course the question arises is this true? Does Man in fact have control? Or is man living in his own fantasy world in which what he wants reality to be is, and what actually is the truth is ignored?
I would like to suggest to you that the first misconception and one of the most important misconceptions on Salvation is that Man has freewill. In truth I will be dealing with two misconceptions. Man’s thinking about what is fair is based off of freewill and the idea of chance. I would like to look first at freewill and say that freewill cannot be correct for three major Biblical principles and truths which are; 1. God’s foreknowledge, 2. The doctrine of Salvation as a gift, and 3. Ability or inability of humans to grasp the truths of salvation.
1. God’s foreknowledge
God has from the beginning shown a level of power well beyond human understanding or comprehension. God has expressed such control over His creation that today there are two generally accepted truths about God, and those are that He is Omnipotent and that He is Omnipresent. Both of these can be backed by Gods word. From Job we can see Gods power as the author of creation and the maker and ruler of the world. From Isaiah 40 we can also see that God is not only powerful as he is all knowing. Isaiah makes a strong point when he asks Israel why the nation is sinning and thinking that it is getting away with its transgression. Isaiah points out that God is not a mortal who is fooled by the airs we humans put on, nor is he tricked by the masks we use to hide ourselves. He is God and he does all that He pleases.
How does this relate to human freewill in regard to salvation or even freewill in general? It does because God is all knowing, and for him to be all knowing he must know what will happen, in the past, present, and future. For Him to see the future he must be able to see every choice that we are making and are going to make. Man in a sense cannot move without God knowing it, because for man to be able to do so would mean that God is not all knowing, and that there are bits of matter in this world that are not subject to His control and power. In addition to this, if Man was able to choose something that God could not see coming then God’s word would be incorrect, as time and time again it mentions God’s knowledge and understand. Simply put, if Gods understand is limited, then He is no better than his own fallen creation, and He is not God.
What about his power? Again, if God is truly powerful he will not just know what will happen, He will in fact chose what will happen. God will, in fact, play God. Sounds preposterous right? Who would have thought of the idea of God using the power that is his by right? Man has for centuries said that God is a greater power who is too powerful to be concerned with man’s affairs. That God only pays attention to the major events. But when you think about it, the big events come from the smallest of movements; a popular Television show called Heros referred to this as the butterfly effect, a single, seemingly unimportant event causes a chain reaction leading to a series of major events that reshape the world. So for God to be able to control the “big things” he must be also in control of the small ones. If God controls not only the big things, but also the small, then He is in control of the past, present, and future in regards to what we do, say, and think.
“But that runs against human freewill. God didn’t create robots did he? No he would rather we chose Him, in that regard the love of God is truly shown.” Whereas it is true that God did not create robots without creativity, it is illogical and in contrary to Gods word to say that we are free and independent of God’s plans. If God is indeed just a spectator who is watching us run around trying to win the game, and can only come in to help when we ask Him too, then he is not truly God at all. For God to be truly God then He must be sovereign and in control of what He mad. God is not just a powerful being that created the world so he could have a couple thousand year movie to watch, He is the King, not a spectator. He justly and rightfully gives out decrees to His subjects here on earth. Again, sin nature hates that. Most likely those last words I wrote ran against you caused a sort of unwillingness and a hate to boil. This is your sin nature, your want to be like God, and your want to replace God with yourself.
What of the Scripture side of this belief? If it were only logic that defended this belief of Gods sovereignty, then the belief would be in err, but again and again God proves that He, not man, controls the world. The most relevant text in this particular debate is found in the book of Romans9:14-23;
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Paul points out that God is in control, and that He has chosen some, and not others, something we will look at later on, but for now consider verse eighteen, where Paul says God has mercy on whomever he wills.
It is not with a defiant air that I ring this bell. It is a grim point, but one that must be made. God has not chosen all to be saved, and therefore many will hear the gospel, and walk away, confused by it, or completely cold to it. You might say what is the point of witnessing to others then? If God has already picked them out, but you have a role to play in this, for although God has chosen them and chosen the very day they would understand and ask for forgiveness, you do not. Again, man thinks that everything God knows he should know, it is only natural after all, when you’re on the same team. But God is not required to answer to what He has made. What then can we boast about Salvation, if God is the one who chooses us? Can we boast about it? No, we cannot. We have done nothing to deserve God’s choosing us and not choosing others. God has planned it this way, as His word says “so that no man may boast.” (Eph 2:9)
What about the doctrine I mentioned earlier? As I said earlier all denominations that refer to themselves as being ‘Christian’ or ‘Evangelical’ have something to say on the matter, and as often as not, get off on three major points, they are 1)Man chooses God through his own freewill. 2) Man is saved by saying a prayer and asking God to come into his heart. 3) Salvation means that sin is dropped and nobody has to pay for it. And 4) that Man can chose to walk away from, or lose his salvation in Christ Jesus. I will explain these to the best of my ability, and may take separate essays to explain the other two main points. I would stress that my aim is not so much to try and sway others from their current disposition as to help others see a point of view that I believe is in line with Gods word.
I. Freewill and the Fairness of Fair
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Man has established a level of importance on being free. He has stated quite clearly that to be under another is not natural or right. To be free, is in man’s mind, a separating factor from those who are human, and those who are mere animals. If you are not free then you are unable to defend your dignity, your honor, your pride, you’re very self. Man wants the ability to be in control. We have shown this again in our want to be free, to be able to chose for ourselves how we go about our lives. Of course change is natural; one of the requirements for human life is to be able to change. It is hard to be in control of change unless you are the one causing the change. As such Man has the natural want to feel like he can not be predicted, that what he does can not be guessed or controlled in any way shape or form, of course the question arises is this true? Does Man in fact have control? Or is man living in his own fantasy world in which what he wants reality to be is, and what actually is the truth is ignored?
I would like to suggest to you that the first misconception and one of the most important misconceptions on Salvation is that Man has freewill. In truth I will be dealing with two misconceptions. Man’s thinking about what is fair is based off of freewill and the idea of chance. I would like to look first at freewill and say that freewill cannot be correct for three major Biblical principles and truths which are; 1. God’s foreknowledge, 2. The doctrine of Salvation as a gift, and 3. Ability or inability of humans to grasp the truths of salvation.
1. God’s foreknowledge
God has from the beginning shown a level of power well beyond human understanding or comprehension. God has expressed such control over His creation that today there are two generally accepted truths about God, and those are that He is Omnipotent and that He is Omnipresent. Both of these can be backed by Gods word. From Job we can see Gods power as the author of creation and the maker and ruler of the world. From Isaiah 40 we can also see that God is not only powerful as he is all knowing. Isaiah makes a strong point when he asks Israel why the nation is sinning and thinking that it is getting away with its transgression. Isaiah points out that God is not a mortal who is fooled by the airs we humans put on, nor is he tricked by the masks we use to hide ourselves. He is God and he does all that He pleases.
How does this relate to human freewill in regard to salvation or even freewill in general? It does because God is all knowing, and for him to be all knowing he must know what will happen, in the past, present, and future. For Him to see the future he must be able to see every choice that we are making and are going to make. Man in a sense cannot move without God knowing it, because for man to be able to do so would mean that God is not all knowing, and that there are bits of matter in this world that are not subject to His control and power. In addition to this, if Man was able to choose something that God could not see coming then God’s word would be incorrect, as time and time again it mentions God’s knowledge and understand. Simply put, if Gods understand is limited, then He is no better than his own fallen creation, and He is not God.
What about his power? Again, if God is truly powerful he will not just know what will happen, He will in fact chose what will happen. God will, in fact, play God. Sounds preposterous right? Who would have thought of the idea of God using the power that is his by right? Man has for centuries said that God is a greater power who is too powerful to be concerned with man’s affairs. That God only pays attention to the major events. But when you think about it, the big events come from the smallest of movements; a popular Television show called Heros referred to this as the butterfly effect, a single, seemingly unimportant event causes a chain reaction leading to a series of major events that reshape the world. So for God to be able to control the “big things” he must be also in control of the small ones. If God controls not only the big things, but also the small, then He is in control of the past, present, and future in regards to what we do, say, and think.
“But that runs against human freewill. God didn’t create robots did he? No he would rather we chose Him, in that regard the love of God is truly shown.” Whereas it is true that God did not create robots without creativity, it is illogical and in contrary to Gods word to say that we are free and independent of God’s plans. If God is indeed just a spectator who is watching us run around trying to win the game, and can only come in to help when we ask Him too, then he is not truly God at all. For God to be truly God then He must be sovereign and in control of what He mad. God is not just a powerful being that created the world so he could have a couple thousand year movie to watch, He is the King, not a spectator. He justly and rightfully gives out decrees to His subjects here on earth. Again, sin nature hates that. Most likely those last words I wrote ran against you caused a sort of unwillingness and a hate to boil. This is your sin nature, your want to be like God, and your want to replace God with yourself.
What of the Scripture side of this belief? If it were only logic that defended this belief of Gods sovereignty, then the belief would be in err, but again and again God proves that He, not man, controls the world. The most relevant text in this particular debate is found in the book of Romans9:14-23;
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Paul points out that God is in control, and that He has chosen some, and not others, something we will look at later on, but for now consider verse eighteen, where Paul says God has mercy on whomever he wills.
It is not with a defiant air that I ring this bell. It is a grim point, but one that must be made. God has not chosen all to be saved, and therefore many will hear the gospel, and walk away, confused by it, or completely cold to it. You might say what is the point of witnessing to others then? If God has already picked them out, but you have a role to play in this, for although God has chosen them and chosen the very day they would understand and ask for forgiveness, you do not. Again, man thinks that everything God knows he should know, it is only natural after all, when you’re on the same team. But God is not required to answer to what He has made. What then can we boast about Salvation, if God is the one who chooses us? Can we boast about it? No, we cannot. We have done nothing to deserve God’s choosing us and not choosing others. God has planned it this way, as His word says “so that no man may boast.” (Eph 2:9)
jars of clay- Posts : 79
Join date : 2008-08-31
Age : 32
Location : dallas tx
Re: the Fairness of Fair, first main point
zatchchris Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:01 pm
"What about his power? Again, if God is truly powerful he will not just know what will happen, He will in fact chose what will happen. God will, in fact, play God. Sounds preposterous right? Who would have thought of the idea of God using the power that is his by right? "
hmmm... i have a problem with this. Just cause God has the power to control doesn't mean he uses it. and By not using it, it doesnt make him any more or less powerful. For example, God has the power to do what he did to sodom and gommora(thats not how its spelled but you knoww hat im talking about) to all of humanity but he doesn't. It doesn't mean that that power isn't there, it means he chooses not to use it. In the same way, God doesn't control everything and choose how everything plays out. You are right in saying he wants beings that out of freewill choose him. So he wouldn't compromise that all. Not even in the slightest. That doesn't mean that he cant is therefore not all powerful. it means that he chooses not to use his power in favor of our free will and in the end, his glory.
"Whereas it is true that God did not create robots without creativity, it is illogical and in contrary to Gods word to say that we are free and independent of God’s plans. If God is indeed just a spectator who is watching us run around trying to win the game, and can only come in to help when we ask Him too, then he is not truly God at all. For God to be truly God then He must be sovereign and in control of what He mad. God is not just a powerful being that created the world so he could have a couple thousand year movie to watch, He is the King, not a spectator. He justly and rightfully gives out decrees to His subjects here on earth. Again, sin nature hates that. Most likely those last words I wrote ran against you caused a sort of unwillingness and a hate to boil. This is your sin nature, your want to be like God, and your want to replace God with yourself. "
Quoting what you say here allows me to specifically point out what im talking about. God doesnt comprimise his sovereignty by allowing us to choose. Furthermore, by choosing not to control, he is not making himself a spectator. Because his will is the will of those who beleive in him and surrender their lives in him he isn't spectating these people, hes working through them. That isnt spectating, thats being a King. Let me ask you this. if God is giving out decrees to his people, why isn't he decreeing that all choose him? He can not be a loving God and the kind of God that controls all, at the same time. Because if he chose to use his power of control on everyone, and he loved everyone, he would forgive everyone and force it upon them so that they may go to heaven, where they live in prosperity forever. However, he hasn't done that. and therefore something is wrong in the logic that God controls everyones actions, big to small included.
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
its majorly important to put this verse into context. its talking about isreal having missed the messiah. and whether or not being of a nationality, such as being isreal, matters to your salvation. Paul is saying that no, God shows mercy and compassion to who he wants. he also can harden those of whom he wants. like i said before, God is omnipotent and can do as he pleases. But God restricts himself in order that he may love his creation and recieve true love from his creation. In that way, God has right over his clay, but chooses to bring both to honorable use. In this, i think paul was misleading, and in some interpretations, off. You must remember that paul is not God! his letters must be treated that way as well! Jesus is God and his words are infallible! but paul uses logic, human logic at that, in his books. and this must be considered when you read his letters!
in the end. I believe God knows the future. That doesn't mean that he controls the future, and it doesn't mean he didn't play a hand in it either. this is because he can work through those whose lives were surrendered to him. Gods love is what prevails. and His love causes him to want all to be saved. He knows that there will be some that dont accept his word and choose to walk away. but he didn't force them to do that. or control them to force them away. No, he knew what they would do and in favor of receiving true love from his creation, he lets us make our choice. I await what more you will say
hmmm... i have a problem with this. Just cause God has the power to control doesn't mean he uses it. and By not using it, it doesnt make him any more or less powerful. For example, God has the power to do what he did to sodom and gommora(thats not how its spelled but you knoww hat im talking about) to all of humanity but he doesn't. It doesn't mean that that power isn't there, it means he chooses not to use it. In the same way, God doesn't control everything and choose how everything plays out. You are right in saying he wants beings that out of freewill choose him. So he wouldn't compromise that all. Not even in the slightest. That doesn't mean that he cant is therefore not all powerful. it means that he chooses not to use his power in favor of our free will and in the end, his glory.
"Whereas it is true that God did not create robots without creativity, it is illogical and in contrary to Gods word to say that we are free and independent of God’s plans. If God is indeed just a spectator who is watching us run around trying to win the game, and can only come in to help when we ask Him too, then he is not truly God at all. For God to be truly God then He must be sovereign and in control of what He mad. God is not just a powerful being that created the world so he could have a couple thousand year movie to watch, He is the King, not a spectator. He justly and rightfully gives out decrees to His subjects here on earth. Again, sin nature hates that. Most likely those last words I wrote ran against you caused a sort of unwillingness and a hate to boil. This is your sin nature, your want to be like God, and your want to replace God with yourself. "
Quoting what you say here allows me to specifically point out what im talking about. God doesnt comprimise his sovereignty by allowing us to choose. Furthermore, by choosing not to control, he is not making himself a spectator. Because his will is the will of those who beleive in him and surrender their lives in him he isn't spectating these people, hes working through them. That isnt spectating, thats being a King. Let me ask you this. if God is giving out decrees to his people, why isn't he decreeing that all choose him? He can not be a loving God and the kind of God that controls all, at the same time. Because if he chose to use his power of control on everyone, and he loved everyone, he would forgive everyone and force it upon them so that they may go to heaven, where they live in prosperity forever. However, he hasn't done that. and therefore something is wrong in the logic that God controls everyones actions, big to small included.
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
its majorly important to put this verse into context. its talking about isreal having missed the messiah. and whether or not being of a nationality, such as being isreal, matters to your salvation. Paul is saying that no, God shows mercy and compassion to who he wants. he also can harden those of whom he wants. like i said before, God is omnipotent and can do as he pleases. But God restricts himself in order that he may love his creation and recieve true love from his creation. In that way, God has right over his clay, but chooses to bring both to honorable use. In this, i think paul was misleading, and in some interpretations, off. You must remember that paul is not God! his letters must be treated that way as well! Jesus is God and his words are infallible! but paul uses logic, human logic at that, in his books. and this must be considered when you read his letters!
in the end. I believe God knows the future. That doesn't mean that he controls the future, and it doesn't mean he didn't play a hand in it either. this is because he can work through those whose lives were surrendered to him. Gods love is what prevails. and His love causes him to want all to be saved. He knows that there will be some that dont accept his word and choose to walk away. but he didn't force them to do that. or control them to force them away. No, he knew what they would do and in favor of receiving true love from his creation, he lets us make our choice. I await what more you will say
zatchchris- Posts : 21
Join date : 2008-10-06
Location : oklahoma
Re: the Fairness of Fair, first main point
jars of clay Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:21 pm
where as i could go at your argument in many different points, I will deal with only the bits that will not pop up in the rest of my essay. In regard first to taking the verse in Context, I would argue with you that my context is more than sound. Yes Paul is speaking of Israel's unbelief, but he is making a point to say that they are not receiving the truth (which has literally been displayed right before their eyes) because God has hardened their hearts. I will deal with my reason for saying this later in another point of this essay so I will stop there. Before I go on i should mention that I will not continue to debate. I am a devotional writer on this site, not a seminary professor.
This point made me laugh (Forgive me). There are several things wrong with it and I will be more than willing to explain them, for now I will only ask, how do you see light without darkness?
in the end. I believe God knows the future. That doesn't mean that he controls the future, and it doesn't mean he didn't play a hand in it either. this is because he can work through those whose lives were surrendered to him. Gods love is what prevails. and His love causes him to want all to be saved. He knows that there will be some that dont accept his word and choose to walk away. but he didn't force them to do that. or control them to force them away. No, he knew what they would do and in favor of receiving true love from his creation, he lets us make our choice. I await what more you will say
This point made me laugh (Forgive me). There are several things wrong with it and I will be more than willing to explain them, for now I will only ask, how do you see light without darkness?
jars of clay- Posts : 79
Join date : 2008-08-31
Age : 32
Location : dallas tx
Re: the Fairness of Fair, first main point
zatchchris Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:10 pm
hahaha, you and i apparently see this concept in two very different lights (pardon the pun, couldnt resist) and based on what you have said, and my experience in the past, it would be pointless for you and i to debate, nor did i want it to turn into that. you see much wrong with my view and i in yours.
you see light, darkness is not seeing light. i see where your coming from. but light is the existence. a better question is how do you see darkness without light. light is something and darkness is nothing. which you will prolly disagree with that too. But whats important is that you and i both believe in the saving grace of God and his sons death brings us salvation. sorry, i always say that after disagreeing with someone for the first time. cuz often debates cause seperation and un-unifies the body of God. i dont like that. but being the way i am also say something when i think somethings outta line. ah well. this is finished as far as this board goes and i will say no further. because you are a devotion writer. and a good one at that. ive read some of your other things too ( i need to comment on them but neway) and you are (no sarcasm, im being serious) good at it and definetly have the spirit of God with you :d God bless you in all things
you see light, darkness is not seeing light. i see where your coming from. but light is the existence. a better question is how do you see darkness without light. light is something and darkness is nothing. which you will prolly disagree with that too. But whats important is that you and i both believe in the saving grace of God and his sons death brings us salvation.
sorry, i always say that after disagreeing with someone for the first time. cuz often debates cause seperation and un-unifies the body of God. i dont like that. but being the way i am also say something when i think somethings outta line. ah well. this is finished as far as this board goes and i will say no further. because you are a devotion writer. and a good one at that. ive read some of your other things too ( i need to comment on them but neway) and you are (no sarcasm, im being serious) good at it and definetly have the spirit of God with you :d God bless you in all things
zatchchris- Posts : 21
Join date : 2008-10-06
Location : oklahoma
Re: the Fairness of Fair, first main point
jars of clay Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:25 pm
lol thank you for the flattery :p (i dont mean to be rude, but i have a very low opinion of what I write...)
in regard to light and darkness, you cannot tell a room is lit without first knowing what it is like without light. If i remember the text correctly that is something Even Paul draws a connection to. OH! before i forget, I must attack you rather savagely (i am deeply sorry for doing this however) on what you said about Pauls writing in contrast to Christs words. What you forget rather surprisingly is that Paul was inspired by God to write the letter to Rome. And as he was an authentic apostle he has more than the right to such. As al Scripture is breathed out by God it is equal and cannot break ties with itself. As such, Paul's writing is not mere logic to chew on, but Gods word to digest and consume.
in regard to light and darkness, you cannot tell a room is lit without first knowing what it is like without light. If i remember the text correctly that is something Even Paul draws a connection to. OH! before i forget, I must attack you rather savagely (i am deeply sorry for doing this however) on what you said about Pauls writing in contrast to Christs words. What you forget rather surprisingly is that Paul was inspired by God to write the letter to Rome. And as he was an authentic apostle he has more than the right to such. As al Scripture is breathed out by God it is equal and cannot break ties with itself. As such, Paul's writing is not mere logic to chew on, but Gods word to digest and consume.
jars of clay- Posts : 79
Join date : 2008-08-31
Age : 32
Location : dallas tx
Re: the Fairness of Fair, first main point
zatchchris Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:28 pm
yet there are multiple times he willingly threw his opinions into the passage. i consider it all God breathed yes. but you must always consider the letters deeply into context and that today they can be so easily taken to mean something else. i wasn't denouncing his word, or saying take it with a grain of salt, but more so suggesting that paul does put his opinions in what he rights on occasion.
zatchchris- Posts : 21
Join date : 2008-10-06
Location : oklahoma
Re: the Fairness of Fair, first main point
jars of clay Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:33 pm
please understand me, I take all of Gods word, every period, every phrase in one context, that is it being literal. either Paul is a man, writing his own opinion in the text. Or he is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and every word he writes is true. If we edit out a single phrase, a single word, we are damned by the last words in the Bible that John recorded.
jars of clay- Posts : 79
Join date : 2008-08-31
Age : 32
Location : dallas tx
Re: the Fairness of Fair, first main point
zatchchris Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:42 pm
2To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.
( from 1 corinthians 7)
notice hear he mentions that what he is saying isn't from the Lord, and it is in the bible, but the word of God is still God breathed.
its not a matter of editting it out. or a matter of taking every period. i do not edit things out nor do i doubt the divinity of the text. my point is made and i need not go farther. to those reading this and doubting even in the slightest that the word of God is the complete truth, that is not my point, and for support, i give a verse stating what jars of clay just said above me
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
dont doubt the scriptures divinity that isn't my point.
( from 1 corinthians 7)
notice hear he mentions that what he is saying isn't from the Lord, and it is in the bible, but the word of God is still God breathed.
its not a matter of editting it out. or a matter of taking every period. i do not edit things out nor do i doubt the divinity of the text. my point is made and i need not go farther. to those reading this and doubting even in the slightest that the word of God is the complete truth, that is not my point, and for support, i give a verse stating what jars of clay just said above me
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
dont doubt the scriptures divinity that isn't my point.
zatchchris- Posts : 21
Join date : 2008-10-06
Location : oklahoma
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